Evosive wrote The whole "gay" issue is just like the race issue here IMO, well, at least somewhat like it. [/b][/align]

100% they are effectively the same. Charactertistics in which a person cannot control should be protected. But this works both ways. I cannot stand hearing people stand up for gay rights and then have a go at somebody for being shallow because they find somebody unattractive.

We cannot change our sexuality. We cannot change our sexual preferences neither. You cannot control whom you're attracted to. So if you're a person who stands up for gay rights then says somebody else is shallow because they don't find somebody or a certain type attractive - you should practice what you preach.

I can't help it if I'm not attracted to fat women. So how does that make me shallow? It doesn't. We cannot help it, we cannot change it. So just leave it at that. Try and use this to point it out to people when you see them being discriminatory. If they don't see it, then take a protected characteristic of theirs and exploit it to show them that they can be just as easily descriminated against.

002 wrote I don't mind gays, what you do in your bed is your business. At the point you become a cross dresser, and / or a flamer, I can no longer stand you.

Most cross dressers are heterosexual.
You are more likely to start cross-dressing than a gay person.

Studies have shown predominance of heterosexuality among transvestites to be 69-89%.
(Docter & Fleming, 2001; Docter & Prince, 1997; Prince & Bentler, 1972).

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Head of the University of Pennsylvania's Department of Human Sexuality and himself a therapist for crossdressers, reported "People associate crossdressing with effeminacy and being gay and the fact is most of them are not gay. They are very definitely heterosexual. "In fact one of the most difficult areas for crossdressers was how to deal with the women with whom they wanted to be involved.

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BonIver wrote

002 wrote I don't mind gays, what you do in your bed is your business. At the point you become a cross dresser, and / or a flamer, I can no longer stand you.

Most cross dressers are heterosexual.
You are more likely to start cross-dressing than a gay person.

Studies have shown predominance of heterosexuality among transvestites to be 69-89%.
(Docter & Fleming, 2001; Docter & Prince, 1997; Prince & Bentler, 1972).

[ Register or Signin to view external links. ]
[ Register or Signin to view external links. ]

Head of the University of Pennsylvania's Department of Human Sexuality and himself a therapist for crossdressers, reported "People associate crossdressing with effeminacy and being gay and the fact is most of them are not gay. They are very definitely heterosexual. "In fact one of the most difficult areas for crossdressers was how to deal with the women with whom they wanted to be involved.

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It doesn't matter what your sexuality is, if your a cross dresser, I won't accept you until you dress normal again lol. As I said, the only reason I have to hate a gay person is if they are a cross dresser, and / or a flamer.

Not only that, but I bet you that I am not more likely to be a cross dresser than a gay guy. Hell, my family already proved it lol, my cousin's gay, he started cross dressing. I'm straight, and I haven't. He's also a flamer which is the reason I barely talk to him.

002 wrote

BonIver wrote

002 wrote I don't mind gays, what you do in your bed is your business. At the point you become a cross dresser, and / or a flamer, I can no longer stand you.

Most cross dressers are heterosexual.
You are more likely to start cross-dressing than a gay person.

Studies have shown predominance of heterosexuality among transvestites to be 69-89%.
(Docter & Fleming, 2001; Docter & Prince, 1997; Prince & Bentler, 1972).

[ Register or Signin to view external links. ]
[ Register or Signin to view external links. ]

Head of the University of Pennsylvania's Department of Human Sexuality and himself a therapist for crossdressers, reported "People associate crossdressing with effeminacy and being gay and the fact is most of them are not gay. They are very definitely heterosexual. "In fact one of the most difficult areas for crossdressers was how to deal with the women with whom they wanted to be involved.

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It doesn't matter what your sexuality is, if your a cross dresser, I won't accept you until you dress normal again lol. As I said, the only reason I have to hate a gay person is if they are a cross dresser, and / or a flamer.

Not only that, but I bet you that I am not more likely to be a cross dresser than a gay guy. Hell, my family already proved it lol, my cousin's gay, he started cross dressing. I'm straight, and I haven't. He's also a flamer which is the reason I barely talk to him.

If you are heterosexual and the majority of cross dressers are heterosexual then you are more likely to be a cross dresser than a homosexual person.
That is just simple maths, logic, and probability.

Just because your cousin is a cross dresser and you're not doesn't change that math.

Negative, I am my own human being, not an average of millions. To say a straight person is more likely to be a cross dresser before a gay person would be the correct way of saying it. You are saying that I, me personally, am more likely to be a cross dresser before a gay person.

Not only that, but how are you sure your facts are correct? You do know that there are people that are described as "closet gays" right? This is where they are gay, but they will say they are straight to fit in. The studies can't account for that, can they?

002 wrote

BonIver wrote

002 wrote

BonIver wrote

002 wrote I don't mind gays, what you do in your bed is your business. At the point you become a cross dresser, and / or a flamer, I can no longer stand you.

Most cross dressers are heterosexual.
You are more likely to start cross-dressing than a gay person.

Studies have shown predominance of heterosexuality among transvestites to be 69-89%.
(Docter & Fleming, 2001; Docter & Prince, 1997; Prince & Bentler, 1972).

[ Register or Signin to view external links. ]
[ Register or Signin to view external links. ]

Head of the University of Pennsylvania's Department of Human Sexuality and himself a therapist for crossdressers, reported "People associate crossdressing with effeminacy and being gay and the fact is most of them are not gay. They are very definitely heterosexual. "In fact one of the most difficult areas for crossdressers was how to deal with the women with whom they wanted to be involved.

[ Register or Signin to view external links. ]

It doesn't matter what your sexuality is, if your a cross dresser, I won't accept you until you dress normal again lol. As I said, the only reason I have to hate a gay person is if they are a cross dresser, and / or a flamer.

Not only that, but I bet you that I am not more likely to be a cross dresser than a gay guy. Hell, my family already proved it lol, my cousin's gay, he started cross dressing. I'm straight, and I haven't. He's also a flamer which is the reason I barely talk to him.

If you are heterosexual and the majority of cross dressers are heterosexual then you are more likely to be a cross dresser than a homosexual person.
That is just simple maths, logic, and probability.

Just because your cousin is a cross dresser and you're not doesn't change that math.

Negative, I am my own human being, not an average of millions. To say a straight person is more likely to be a cross dresser before a gay person would be the correct way of saying it. You are saying that I, me personally, am more likely to be a cross dresser before a gay person.

Not only that, but how are you sure your facts are correct? You do know that there are people that are described as "closet gays" right? This is where they are gay, but they will say they are straight to fit in. The studies can't account for that, can they?

You obviously don't understand math. And no, even if we make this all about you personally, you're still not any less likely to be a transvestite than a gay person. I could find a gay person who hates transvestites just as much as you do. Then you are both just as likely to become transvestites.
In general, straight people are more likely to be transvestites, you might not like that fact because it doesn't fit with your view of all these prancing pony gay people frolicking about in their dresses, but it's still the truth.

Homosexuals who are yet to reveal themselves aren't going to account for 30+%.
The studies were also done on people who are already cross dressers and in environments where they wouldn't need to lie about their sexuality.
Studies are supposed to be done under controlled conditions where factors which could cause discrepancies are minimized, they would have thought of this and taken steps to minimize the impact it had on the study.
Besides, the head of the Human Sexuality department at Pennsylvania University was a therapist counselor for transvestites.
They aren't going to be lying to their therapist about their sexuality, that's the whole point of a therapist.

Here's the issue with your study. You don't know what the X% is of people who are in the closet. Also, that study does not account for everyone.

You struggle with the proper way to say things, don't you? You are saying that I personally am more likely to be a cross dresser than a gay is. The funny thing here is you assume I'm straight without me saying otherwise, but that's besides the point. What you mean here is that the average straight male is more likely to be a cross dresser than the average gay male. As soon as you sight in on one single individual, you are more than likely going to be wrong. Think about it, if you said that to my dead grandfather who to the best of my knowledge was not a cross dresser, you would be wrong as he was not a cross dresser yet he was straight and many gay people in his life time decided to cross dress. See how that works?

I still struggle to see where you are coming from. I simply said I don't mind gays as long as they are not cross dressers and / or flamers. It had nothing to do with me saying gays are more likely to be cross dressers yet you come in saying that I am more likely to be a cross dresser than a gay person. That bit of information you shared was irrelevant to the post you where replying to. Again, I only gave examples as to why I might hate a gay person.

BonIver wrote

002 wrote

BonIver wrote

002 wrote

BonIver wrote

002 wrote I don't mind gays, what you do in your bed is your business. At the point you become a cross dresser, and / or a flamer, I can no longer stand you.

Most cross dressers are heterosexual.
You are more likely to start cross-dressing than a gay person.

Studies have shown predominance of heterosexuality among transvestites to be 69-89%.
(Docter & Fleming, 2001; Docter & Prince, 1997; Prince & Bentler, 1972).

[ Register or Signin to view external links. ]
[ Register or Signin to view external links. ]

Head of the University of Pennsylvania's Department of Human Sexuality and himself a therapist for crossdressers, reported "People associate crossdressing with effeminacy and being gay and the fact is most of them are not gay. They are very definitely heterosexual. "In fact one of the most difficult areas for crossdressers was how to deal with the women with whom they wanted to be involved.

[ Register or Signin to view external links. ]

It doesn't matter what your sexuality is, if your a cross dresser, I won't accept you until you dress normal again lol. As I said, the only reason I have to hate a gay person is if they are a cross dresser, and / or a flamer.

Not only that, but I bet you that I am not more likely to be a cross dresser than a gay guy. Hell, my family already proved it lol, my cousin's gay, he started cross dressing. I'm straight, and I haven't. He's also a flamer which is the reason I barely talk to him.

If you are heterosexual and the majority of cross dressers are heterosexual then you are more likely to be a cross dresser than a homosexual person.
That is just simple maths, logic, and probability.

Just because your cousin is a cross dresser and you're not doesn't change that math.

Negative, I am my own human being, not an average of millions. To say a straight person is more likely to be a cross dresser before a gay person would be the correct way of saying it. You are saying that I, me personally, am more likely to be a cross dresser before a gay person.

Not only that, but how are you sure your facts are correct? You do know that there are people that are described as "closet gays" right? This is where they are gay, but they will say they are straight to fit in. The studies can't account for that, can they?

You obviously don't understand math. And no, even if we make this all about you personally, you're still not any less likely to be a transvestite than a gay person. I could find a gay person who hates transvestites just as much as you do. Then you are both just as likely to become transvestites.
In general, straight people are more likely to be transvestites, you might not like that fact because it doesn't fit with your view of all these prancing pony gay people frolicking about in their dresses, but it's still the truth.

Homosexuals who are yet to reveal themselves aren't going to account for 30+%.
The studies were also done on people who are already cross dressers and in environments where they wouldn't need to lie about their sexuality.
Studies are supposed to be done under controlled conditions where factors which could cause discrepancies are minimized, they would have thought of this and taken steps to minimize the impact it had on the study.
Besides, the head of the Human Sexuality department at Pennsylvania University was a therapist counselor for transvestites.
They aren't going to be lying to their therapist about their sexuality, that's the whole point of a therapist.

I'm sorry, I just wanted to point that out. Yeah, I could go into a club of cross dressers and say 70 out of 100 are gay, and 30 out of 100 are straight too lol. That was a controlled study, human kind is not controlled. Just going put that out there. You can't take one control group and assume that the rest of the world is like that.

002 wrote Here's the issue with your study. You don't know what the X% is of people who are in the closet. Also, that study does not account for everyone.

You struggle with the proper way to say things, don't you? You are saying that I personally am more likely to be a cross dresser than a gay is. The funny thing here is you assume I'm straight without me saying otherwise, but that's besides the point. What you mean here is that the average straight male is more likely to be a cross dresser than the average gay male. As soon as you sight in on one single individual, you are more than likely going to be wrong. Think about it, if you said that to my dead grandfather who to the best of my knowledge was not a cross dresser, you would be wrong as he was not a cross dresser yet he was straight and many gay people in his life time decided to cross dress. See how that works?

I still struggle to see where you are coming from. I simply said I don't mind gays as long as they are not cross dressers and / or flamers. It had nothing to do with me saying gays are more likely to be cross dressers yet you come in saying that I am more likely to be a cross dresser than a gay person. That bit of information you shared was irrelevant to the post you where replying to. Again, I only gave examples as to why I might hate a gay person.

From your general demeanor towards gays and transgender people, it's quite an easy assumption to make.
And it turns out that my assumption was correct, assumption isn't always the mother, sometimes it's just the most logical conclusion.

You are comparing one specific heterosexual to 'the average gay.'
Tell me, what is the average gay? That's the problem with what you are saying.
You have to compare one specific heterosexual with one specific homosexual.
That is why I said that if I were to compare you with a gay person who hates cross dressers just as much you would both be as likely to be a cross dresser as each other. Comparing you to a gay person who is on the verge of cross dressing is pointless. You are basically saying 'I'm less likely to be a cross dresser than a cross dresser.'

Your comment about cross dressers in your original reply to this topic was completely irrelevant too. You pointed out one small aspect of human sexuality to pick on homosexuals for when the majority of them aren't homosexual.
Why not: 'I have no problem with gay people, until they become dictators and start killing people.'
'I have no problem with gay people, until they start doing school shootings.'
Those things are just as relevant to gay people as cross dressing is.

Also, that study does not account for everyone.
I could go into a club of cross dressers and say 70 out of 100 are gay, and 30 out of 100 are straight too lol. That was a controlled study, human kind is not controlled.

No, that is not a controlled study. I didn't think I would need to go into the complexities of what makes a scientific, psychological or sociological study controlled.
A natural or field experiment is the type of study which is most commonly criticized because it isn't controlled and the results cannot be replicated.
The results that heterosexuals make up the majority of cross dressers is commonly replicated.

I linked studies going back to the 70's, across different cities around the world, the majority of which found that heterosexuality was the norm in transvestite sexuality, and all other sexuality's numbered lower than that.
Of course you cannot interview every single cross dresser on this planet, but a mixture of studies all coming to the same conclusion that heterosexuality is the norm is extremely hard for you to argue against.
You would need to go through every single study and prove that their methodology was completely open to unrelated factors destroying the controlled nature of the study.

Did you ever do the experiment in school where your teacher took you outside to a muddy area and told you to count all of the worms in a 1 meter square?
That was to give you a general idea of the entire population of worms in the entire muddy area. Unless you chose a square where for some unknown reason [which controls should protect against] the amount of worms was hugely higher or lower than in every other square you are going to get a good overall average.
You would get an even more accurate average if there were 10 other students also counting the worms in different squares.

That is no different to having these studies conducted around the world.

Some of you seem to be internally homophobic, you think that you're not against gays because you don't have a problem with gay men who conform to the concept of masculinity.

Some make a point that black people can't change their skin color and gay people can't change their sexuality and so it's wrong to discriminate against them. However some of you have ridiculed how certain gay people act and speak, as if people have control over how vibrations effect their vocal cords when they speak casually.

The idea that gay men who are 'feminine' can't be tolerated is like saying being a woman is bad for a start, the perception of female attributes is something that is intolerable.

I think people should really start moving away from this view that is so centralized on how masculine a guy has to be to be a man, and how effeminate men are lesser and disgust people.

Maybe don't even take into consideration what gender a person personifies through their mannerism and how they speak and judge them on their character and their actions.

tl;dr if you can't stand someone because they are feminine or have a high voice you're still discriminating against gay people.