You can't simply "change the Quran". It's a Holy Book. No Muslim would even consider changing it and I agree with them. Plus there are millions of copies of the Quran, so how do you suggest we change all the millions of copies?

So is the United States a Christian country? Christianity is the largest religion in the United States, yet we are tolerant of every religion. Why do we have to call a country by its religion anyways? Does it matter? Should we call the United States a "White Country"? It was founded by white people and the majority are white. It's not fair to make this assumption.

And violence people do bring violence to a religion.

Methylamine wrote

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Woodkid wrote

SharpEye wrote I'll just leave this here and hope people watch it and understand the bigotry,

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So basically.
Anchor: Look at how bad things are in this country which follows Islamic teachings.
Reza: Yes, but look at how nice things are in this Muslim country!

How about we change the verses in the Quran which lead to the bad things happening in some Muslim countries?
It's obvious that the 'good' countries aren't following those teachings, so getting rid of them shouldn't be a problem.

Why settle for some good countries and some bad countries, when we could have all good countries.

'Muslim country' isn't a stupid thing to say either, Reza just doesn't like being backed into a corner.
If a countries laws are based on Islamic teaching, and the majority religion in that country is Islam, then it's a Muslim country.

"Violent people bring violence to their Religion."
Are we seriously suggesting that the Charlie Hebdo killings would have still happened if all of the verses prescribing violence against non-believers and verses about it being wrong to draw Muhammed weren't the Quran? Seriously?

You can't simply "change the Quran". It's a Holy Book. No Muslim would even consider changing it and I agree with them. Plus there are millions of copies of the Quran, so how do you suggest we change all the millions of copies?

So is the United States a Christian country? Christianity is the largest religion in the United States, yet we are tolerant of every religion. Why do we have to call a country by its religion anyways? Does it matter? Should we call the United States a "White Country"? It was founded by white people and the majority are white. It's not fair to make this assumption.

And violence people do bring violence to a religion.

Islam could be reformed if the majority of 'moderate Muslims' agreed to it, but they won't because they're scared.
Scared of being stoned to death, or being imprisoned with a punishment of 1000 lashes for speaking out against Islam.

We could also change the Quran if the majority of Muslims agreed to it.
If Islam really was the religion of peace, it wouldn't even have verses of violence in it, and most Muslims would certainly want them removed.
For the sake of people being killed all over the world Islam can deal with a few verses being edited out over the next few generations.
It's not like the Bible has stayed exactly the same as it first was and Christians have managed to get along just fine knowing that.

The US isn't a Christian country because it says in the constitution that it isn't.
and yes, it is useful to call a country a Muslim country in this context. It's easier to get across why you're referring to a certain country, and it provides a contrast for 'non-Muslim countries.'

Also, you can't just say that 'Yes violent people do bring violence to a religion' when I've given a reason why they don't. You might as well have just said "You're wrong because you're wrong."

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Woodkid wrote

Methylamine wrote

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Woodkid wrote

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Woodkid wrote I'm getting kind of tired of this whole, 'It's just a few bad apples' and 'The religion doesn't kill people, bad people kill people.'

Pay attention to the Muslim speaker and the crowd he is preaching to.

When you have a religion followed by 1.6 billion people whose Holy Book prescribes violence upon non-believers, says that homosexuals should be stoned to death, and that people who leave the Religion should be killed, that is dangerous and it needs to be changed.
We can't keep going on acting like these people aren't being inspired by the Quran.

Even if it is just 1% of Muslims which follow these beliefs, which it quite obviously isn't, that's still 16 million people advocating the death penalty for things western civilisation doesn't even consider to be crimes.

Methylamine wrote Again, you got this information from the MEDIA. The media couldn't care less about how it portrays people. As long as people watch it and they're making money, they don't care.

I got a video of a room full of 'Moderate Muslims' saying they agreed with the punishments in the Quran for being homosexual, and leaving the religion, from the Media.
So what if it's from the Media? Does that make what happened in the video a conspiracy all of a sudden? Does it mean it was all fake or that it means nothing? Obviously not.
And as for the clip of Bill Maher and Sam Harris talking with Ben Affleck, so what if it's the media?
You have to actually point out flaws in their logic to argue against them.
You can't just cover your eyes, point and scream, 'MEDIA PROPAGANDA AAAAAH!'

Just because you see a video from the media, doesn't mean all Muslims are like this. I have quite a few Muslim friends and I don't believe in Allah (no offense), but I'm not getting stoned to death by them...

I'm not saying all Muslims are like this, I'm saying that it's more than just a few of them who agree with the murderous punishments for crimes in the Quran, and that those punishments should be taken out of the Quran to stop people using it to justify their killings.
I'm not saying that all Muslims are going to start stoning people to death. There's a reason why moderate Muslims are afraid to speak out against things like this in the Eastern world, but not in the Western world. We have freedom of speech, Islam prohibits freedom of speech.

Also, just because you have a few Muslim friends who are all right doesn't mean that all Muslims the world over are like that. Your friends have grown up in the west, they're used to ideas like Freedom of Speech. The same can't be said for Muslims who have spent their entire lives in the Middle East, or North Africa.
In those areas, people are killed for speaking out against Islam, or instituting western ideals. Look at Boko Haram, they've just killed 2000 people in Nigeria using the Quran to justify it.

We need to stop treating the Quran like it's some sacrosanct book which is more important than people's lives.

The problem with the media isn't that they don't show the truth. It's not a conspiracy nor a fake video. The media just doesn't like to show the other side of the argument. They show that their side is right and don't care to bring up the other side of arguments.

And some of my Muslim friends did grow up in Eastern as well as Western countries.

Just watch what SharpEye posted. You can't paint everyone in the picture with the same broad brush. I agree, there are some Muslims that take it to the extreme, but that doesn't mean someone can go around bashing the Quran and Islam. There's also some other religious extremists. Not just Muslim. Nobody in the media cares about showing those videos because they won't get as much views as ISIS or Al Qaeda.

This is hilarious.
You've just pointed out how bad the media is as a source, yet you're trying to use a media video to prove your point?

and it doesn't matter if there are other religions doing bad things.
We can criticize Islam and the Quran because they deserve to be criticized.
Any holy book which prescribes the killing of non-believers, and is acted upon, should be reformed.

Ok maybe I was wrong to criticize the media, then use the media as a source. But you're taking a room of about a few hundred or so Muslims and making the statement that all Muslims are evil wicked creatures.

Did you really just say "it doesn't matter if there are other religions doing bad things"? So if a Christian group decided to do another "9/11", then it doesn't matter because they're Christian so it's ok... The Bible doesn't necessarily prescribe killing innocent people, so it's ok for a handful of Christians to do such a thing..

And the Quran is in Arabic. So how do you receive your information about it being a horrible book which talks about killing innocent people. The media I presume?

Methylamine wrote

Woodkid wrote

Methylamine wrote

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Woodkid wrote

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Woodkid wrote I'm getting kind of tired of this whole, 'It's just a few bad apples' and 'The religion doesn't kill people, bad people kill people.'

Pay attention to the Muslim speaker and the crowd he is preaching to.

When you have a religion followed by 1.6 billion people whose Holy Book prescribes violence upon non-believers, says that homosexuals should be stoned to death, and that people who leave the Religion should be killed, that is dangerous and it needs to be changed.
We can't keep going on acting like these people aren't being inspired by the Quran.

Even if it is just 1% of Muslims which follow these beliefs, which it quite obviously isn't, that's still 16 million people advocating the death penalty for things western civilisation doesn't even consider to be crimes.

Methylamine wrote Again, you got this information from the MEDIA. The media couldn't care less about how it portrays people. As long as people watch it and they're making money, they don't care.

I got a video of a room full of 'Moderate Muslims' saying they agreed with the punishments in the Quran for being homosexual, and leaving the religion, from the Media.
So what if it's from the Media? Does that make what happened in the video a conspiracy all of a sudden? Does it mean it was all fake or that it means nothing? Obviously not.
And as for the clip of Bill Maher and Sam Harris talking with Ben Affleck, so what if it's the media?
You have to actually point out flaws in their logic to argue against them.
You can't just cover your eyes, point and scream, 'MEDIA PROPAGANDA AAAAAH!'

Just because you see a video from the media, doesn't mean all Muslims are like this. I have quite a few Muslim friends and I don't believe in Allah (no offense), but I'm not getting stoned to death by them...

I'm not saying all Muslims are like this, I'm saying that it's more than just a few of them who agree with the murderous punishments for crimes in the Quran, and that those punishments should be taken out of the Quran to stop people using it to justify their killings.
I'm not saying that all Muslims are going to start stoning people to death. There's a reason why moderate Muslims are afraid to speak out against things like this in the Eastern world, but not in the Western world. We have freedom of speech, Islam prohibits freedom of speech.

Also, just because you have a few Muslim friends who are all right doesn't mean that all Muslims the world over are like that. Your friends have grown up in the west, they're used to ideas like Freedom of Speech. The same can't be said for Muslims who have spent their entire lives in the Middle East, or North Africa.
In those areas, people are killed for speaking out against Islam, or instituting western ideals. Look at Boko Haram, they've just killed 2000 people in Nigeria using the Quran to justify it.

We need to stop treating the Quran like it's some sacrosanct book which is more important than people's lives.

The problem with the media isn't that they don't show the truth. It's not a conspiracy nor a fake video. The media just doesn't like to show the other side of the argument. They show that their side is right and don't care to bring up the other side of arguments.

And some of my Muslim friends did grow up in Eastern as well as Western countries.

Just watch what SharpEye posted. You can't paint everyone in the picture with the same broad brush. I agree, there are some Muslims that take it to the extreme, but that doesn't mean someone can go around bashing the Quran and Islam. There's also some other religious extremists. Not just Muslim. Nobody in the media cares about showing those videos because they won't get as much views as ISIS or Al Qaeda.

This is hilarious.
You've just pointed out how bad the media is as a source, yet you're trying to use a media video to prove your point?

and it doesn't matter if there are other religions doing bad things.
We can criticize Islam and the Quran because they deserve to be criticized.
Any holy book which prescribes the killing of non-believers, and is acted upon, should be reformed.

Ok maybe I was wrong to criticize the media, then use the media as a source. But you're taking a room of about a few hundred or so Muslims and making the statement that all Muslims are evil wicked creatures.

Did you really just say "it doesn't matter if there are other religions doing bad things"? So if a Christian group decided to do another "9/11", then it doesn't matter because they're Christian so it's ok... The Bible doesn't necessarily prescribe killing innocent people, so it's ok for a handful of Christians to do such a thing..

And the Quran is in Arabic. So how do you receive your information about it being a horrible book which talks about killing innocent people. The media I presume?

When we're talking about Islam it doesn't matter if there are other religions doing bad things.
It doesn't mean that Islam isn't and doesn't need to be dealt with.
It's like saying people can't condemn a robber because a murderer killed someone a few streets over.

and no, Quran.com actually.
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Methylamine wrote

Im not even going to flame anymore... If you want to hate Muslims, that's your choice. It's just ignorant to call the Muslim group as a whole, bad, if only 1-2% of them are extremist.

We could say the same about Americans. We enslaved millions of blacks and then continued to rape, beat, and kill them for about 250 years. So this must mean that all Americans are savages.

I'm almost certain I already said that not all Muslims are bad.
Scratch that, I'm certain:

I'm not saying all Muslims are like this, I'm saying that it's more than just a few of them who agree with the murderous punishments for crimes in the Quran...

I've also already said that 1% of Muslims is still 16 million people.

I don't hate Muslims, I think the Quran needs to be changed. If that offends some Muslims, so be it.
It's their own holy book which is being used to justify murder.

don't blame religions, blame people thats why World Peace will never happen.

Woodkid wrote

Methylamine wrote

Im not even going to flame anymore... If you want to hate Muslims, that's your choice. It's just ignorant to call the Muslim group as a whole, bad, if only 1-2% of them are extremist.

We could say the same about Americans. We enslaved millions of blacks and then continued to rape, beat, and kill them for about 250 years. So this must mean that all Americans are savages.

I'm almost certain I already said that not all Muslims are bad.
Scratch that, I'm certain:

I'm not saying all Muslims are like this, I'm saying that it's more than just a few of them who agree with the murderous punishments for crimes in the Quran...

I've also already said that 1% of Muslims is still 16 million people.

I don't hate Muslims, I think the Quran needs to be changed. If that offends some Muslims, so be it.
It's their own holy book which is being used to justify murder.

If we're gonna be changing a religious book, then we might as well change all of them that contains violence about non believers.

Also, I thought that before/during the First Crusade, nonbelievers of Islam only had to pay an extra tax? They didn't kill them, try to convert them, etc.

Christianity, on the other hand...

Methylamine wrote

Im just going to say this once then I'm done with this argument. People have been dealing with violence and equality issues, ever since people came to be. So why is it that all of a sudden, Muslims are getting all the hate for their "violence in the Quran"? There's always going to be violence being practiced in the world. You can't stop it. It's just how people are born. It's just the most ignorant thing to say that "religion causes wars", "get rid of the religion", "people don't cause violence, religion does". It just reminds me of the whole gun control issues. "People don't kill people, guns do". Well who's pulling the trigger?

You can't stop it.

Well I guess that's where we disagree.
Not fully, of course, but I don't find the idea of there being a dramatic decrease in Islamic terrorism far fetched.
That's all people are trying to achieve. We're not going for world peace here.

Extremist Muslims would not be killing non-believers, bombing marketplaces, or massacring villages if the Quran didn't contain verses of violence.
Religion is giving them a reason to be violent, a gun gives people the means, but not the reason.